To Eroc! - Roger Waters' sound

[halloweenfiend666]

Hey Eroc, Im new to this forum but have been a fan of WYWH for a few years now. You guys are really amazing and I look forward to seeing you guys play many more times.

I had a question regarding your bass and how you approach trying to get a Roger Water's tone. I myself am a bassist and love to jam to Floyd stuff. I'm curious, I know you have some vintage Precision's, but I'd like to know what kinda strings you play. I hear nowadays Rog is playing Roto Jazz bass 77 flatwounds... however I am curious as to if he always played flats.

Listening to Floyd's sound over the years (particularly the live shows) it seemed Rog favored a trebly, punchy bass tone. Hence the Rickenbacker and then switching to a P bass in the '70's. However I was always under the impression he would have played roundwounds for their attack and punchy nature. I'm curious as to what you, Eroc, think about trying to emulate Rog's tone.

I personally think it seemed that Waters' tone seemed to switch from time to time. Some RoIo's I've listened to clearly demonstrate the punchy/trebly tone and other's seem to sound like he was favoring a very bassy, almost fuzzy distorted tone (almost like a Jack Bruce tone from the 60's). I guess it could just be my ear, but I would like to know your thought on this subject.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what kinda plectrums do you prefer Eroc? What's the action like on your basses? And where'd you get that groovy mirrored pickguard? Thanks for your time Eroc, from one bass player to another.

-Jon

[halloweenfiend666]

... any comments Eroc?

[Eroc]

halloweenfiend666 said:

... any comments Eroc?

Hi Jon, thanks very much for your interest in the bass, and support of the band!!
I just popped online briefly tonite, and can more properly answer your questions tomorrow, when my brain isn't quite, er, cloudy! (Hey, it's 2:50am lol.. )

(Ah, the Brewkettle!! highly recommended!)
Thanks for understanding, more to come -
Eroc

[Eroc]

Okay Jon, I'm a little more coherent at his point, hope yer ready to digest this extended 'tome on tone', lol...

Funny you should ask about my tone, as I'm currently in a bit of a transition with that, looking to change it in some ways. And we need to dig up a bit of my past in order to explain where I'm at now.
I've had my main axe, a 1976 Precision, since around 1980 (bought it from the original owner) and loved that direct & very warm, round tone of the Fender, that John Paul Jones had early on... for years I had that 'woofier' low-end sound, also partially due to the amps I used to use - my first old Fender Bassman, then *gulp* some Peavey & Yorkville amps & cabs - but hey, I was on a budget and I made do with what I could, lol...

Around '93 I got the Michael Stanley gig and moved up to higher-end rigs, eventually settling on SWR, which are very road-worthy and have a different kind of tone, more 'transparent' and quite different than what I had before. It really made my bass fit in well with the bands I was playing in - bigger ensembles like Stanley's, and the heavier stuff with Hammered. So when we continued our Floydian material thru Wish You Were Here, it was quite a 'happy accident', if you will, that Rog also primarily played a black maple-necked Precision.
(My collection also includes other basses that I've acquired over the years, either for personal sake - ala my Jager guitar & bass - or for a gig's sake, ie. my Alembic & my Tobias 6 String, which I use for the Grateful Dead tribute - they nail that Lesh sound, and more! But my Precision almost always sounds best for most of my gigs.. and I now have 4 of 'em!)

It's really only been in the last year or so that I've been looking to work on my tone more (btw, in the musician's age-old argument about Tone, I believe it is a combination of both your personal style, ie. how you play with your hands & and fingers, AND your instrument and amp.) Since getting Jamie in the band, I've spent even more time than usual listening to board tapes of WYWH, and am kinda disappointed that my bass (at least on the tapes) does not seem to have enough 'middle guts', ya know the lowmids-to-mids, the punchiness that characterizes Rog's basic sound from back in the day (and I agree with you that his sound has changed over the years a bit, you are correct IMO too). I mean, I think my tone has been sitting well in the entire mix of everything, when you've got a full 8-piece band going, but then it does seem a just a tad bit lacking when we compress down to the earlier material like Careful Eugene... (which is probably why Rog used the 'Jack Bruce' push at times too.)
Part of it could be that the EQ settings on my amp that I'm using to hear myself on stage, is what is being sent to the FOH, and it's not translating as well... I've decided to also tweak my Digitech BP8 (my tube preamp/effects board) to rectify that a bit as well, and see how that changes it.
And... I've also been thinking about trying another brand of amp.... when I play with Stanley I'm usually provided with an Ampeg SVT cabinet that sounds decent with my SWR amp.... but I'm not really interested in a full Ampeg rig, I would like to check out Ashdown, they're British and I've heard they sound great but that they are also not as road-worthy, which is important to me. I need to do more homework on this...

I've tried various strings over the years but my main strings in the last 8 years or so have been DR Strings.. the High Beams or Marcus Millers, 45-105. They seem to last the longest with consistency of tone... definitely bright, so while that does make me have to compensate at times, it helps in the long run - fog machines and the constant change of humidity and conditions that I gig with in WYWH & Stanley and my bar gigs do take their toll on strings and these DRs just continue to rock, and I've rarely broken a string - if I do (like at a Stanley gig this summer) it was because I waited much too long to change 'em, ie. I shoulda known better, lol...

For picks I use the purple Dunlop Tortex 1.14mm, regular shape (and the Fenders, exact same purple 1.14mm XH when there are no Dunlops, usually because I've bought them all, lol). I also use those when I pluck around on guitar.
The action is fairly low, but I don't like it to be buzzy, you lose the warm round tone when it's too low. I need to get many of my guitars re-set as it is, the weather changes really do affect them.

I love my mirrored pickguards, got that from Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzy, not personally of course (I wish!) but I always thought that looked very cool... around the mid-'80's I first had one put on my main bass... have been thru a few since then, as they tend to crack near the input jack - they are actually clear plastic with a reflective coating on the back... I also put one on my 73 Precision (my main backup) along with the Hip-shot D-tuners that I've used since the '80's (Billy Sheehan influence there). I do have a metal one that may eventually go on my '87 Jap Precision (my practice & Jam Night backup bass) but I'm not sure if it will fit on there exactly right, so I've put that on hold.... I love being able to use it to reflect the light beams into the crowd, and blind my friends in the audience!

So that's much of my WYWH bass story (but - yikes - not all, lol... I could go on for quite awhile about a lot of this - very soon I will have a webpage up that details all my basses, gear, and influences).
(Side note: For my acoustic duo gigs that I do 2-3 times a week, I've been using a Rogue copy of a Hofner bass, that's been outfitted with a Hofner bridge and tailpiece - and I LOVE IT for that gig - super easy to play, warm & round with a very wooden tone - perfect for the acoustic rock gig.)

Thanks very much for your interest and I hope this gives you a little idea where my head is at... Yes, I want to sound more like Roger in WYWH, but I also have a need to be comfortable with my own personal tone... which I guess is kinda schizophrenic seeing that I play in a few different genres, lol....

And since you're a bass player - what kind of playing are you doing, with what gear and where?

Thanks!!
Eroc

[halloweenfiend666]

Hey Eroc, thanks for the info. I can only dream about someday having half the gear you have. That's pretty cool that you played with Michael Stanley, I had no idea.

Right now I am playing a standard Fender Precision, all black with a replacement maple on maple neck. I wish I had a 70's one, that would rock, killer tone I bet. I plan on changing out the stock pickups, mayb with some re-issue '62 Fender ones... possibly upgrade my bridge to a Leo Quan Badass II. You have any experience with those bridges??? I hear they're nice for getting more punch and sustain, anyway... For amplification I'm using a vintage 70's Kustom III cabinet and matching head. The cab has two 15's and a HF horn I believe, the head has two channels with EQ on each. It sounds pretty decent for it's age. Sounds best for low end stuff, but can get a decent snappy, trebly sound too.

It's kinda funny, because when I started playing bass I was really influenced a lot by punk rock and wanted to be like Dee Dee Ramone, lol. Hence why I got a Precision bass (I really wanted the American series too, but I was on a budget). And nowadays I'm a big Floyd fan, and love to learn the bass parts, and it just works out that I already have a Precision, ha.

Regarding tone though, I really have a passion for a punchy trebly bass sound. I think Roger's sound on Live At Pompeii really nails it for me. Especially during the jam section of 'Echoes'... wow, great rock tone. However, I really dig all kinds of music, so I don't really stick to one "sound"... but Precisions seem pretty versatile, which is cool.

I just recently got my bass back from getting a setup. The guitar tech actually told me I had a really nice bass, lol, I was flattered. Anyway, I got some Ernie Ball Super Slinky roundwounds on it right now. They seem to be nicely bright and punchy. And I like that the E and A string is .005 smaller than standard gauge, feels a little more balanced to me, IMHO.

Last but not least, I'm not really performing in a band right now... played in a punk band during my highschool years, that played out quite a bit. But since I started college I haven't been in many groups. That may change though, I think I might be starting something with friends... possibly a very psychedelic, free-form, avante garde, type of jam band... trying to experiment with a lot of different things you kno.

It's funny you mentioned looking into Ashdown amps. I was recently thinking of getting something contemporary to replace my vintage Kustom amp, and Ashdown was one of the brands that came to mind. I dunno, I think when I have the funding I'd really like to find a nice half-stack that's reliable, loud, and has a decent tone.

Ok, Eroc, it's been nice talking bass with you. Cheers.

[JC]

"And... I've also been thinking about trying another brand of amp.... when I play with Stanley I'm usually provided with an Ampeg SVT cabinet that sounds decent with my SWR amp.... but I'm not really interested in a full Ampeg rig, I would like to check out Ashdown, they're British and I've heard they sound great but that they are also not as road-worthy, which is important to me. I need to do more homework on this..."

Yes, Ashdown's *do* rock . . .

. . . but, you'll have it in the shop in no time . . .

Roadworthy-wise, they get an F, but, they really do sound fuckin' great.

'roc, ever thought about checkin' out an Eden? Or, even just getting an Avalon pre-amp?

. . . bravely venturing into bass-land:
JC

;D

[raggedglory]

I am certainly not an expert on bass guitar, but that mention of John Paul Jones made me think about something that I thought would add some color to this thread. A few years ago I saw JPJ open for King Crimson. He had the most beautiful instraments that I have ever seen. He explained they were custom made and that the maker toured with him.

[JC]

Yeah

That bass lap steel of his is bitchin'

I highly recommend JPJ's solo album, 'Zooma'

Then you'll understand where all those "heavy" Zep riffs (a la "Heartbreaker" & "Black Dog") *really* came from!!!

. . . speakin' of which, my copy of that was lost in the Great CD Steal of 2000 . . . need to find that one again . . .

[PLPFJunior]

Eden......hands down the best sounding amps I've ever played on (at the music store of course.......I'm not making enough gigging to pay for one of those yet lol). My favorite sounding one was the Time Traveler, but it's ONLY 405 watts (at 4ohm) which is slightly lower than my current 420 (yea that's right......). I'd like something a bit larger, not too much tho.....maybe like 550, especially with many other players telling me "Eden's sound AMAZING, and they do, but they lack the power side"....and I'd prob have to get more watts from them. Their 2 x 10 and 4 x 10 cabs also sound sick, but then again, the Goliath III is nothing to sneeze at--although if I were to start from scratch again, I think I'd go with at least an Eden head and 4 x 10 (or 2 x 10.....getting REAL sick of hauling around that 4 x 10.....need roadies LOL). I'd also like to ditch my 15 for an 18, possibly "subbed" out w/ a crossover, cuz the Goliath sounds phenomenal solo, and I love low-end........my band mates think it's hilarious how much I talk about "my low-end". The only other negative thing I've heard about Eden heads is that you gotta take care of them--dont just shove it in the truck, use a little care. Not a problem for my OCD ass lol. But they can spend a bit of time in the shop. Of course my electronics guy told me the same thing about SWR (when I was fed up with my mid-beginner Crate head) and well, he was kinda right, or I have a curse head--4 times since I've owned it (3 years??).......but then again it was an eBay purchase.....one of the very few things that have not been anything BUT great for me.

I also think these gear convo's are GREAT!! Most musicians I know love reading this stuff (I don't play keys, but very intriguing and interesting), and beginners too afraid to ask questions benefit a lot..........I remember when I was there (a mere almost-6 years ago now) and how much help people, specifically Eroc, gave me with gear.

Eric

[Eroc]

Yes, finally a thread about my job tools - woohoo!! ;D

A few reciprocating comments (my 3 and 4 cents, lol):

Thanks to Halloweenfiend666 for starting it all - and glad to hear that you may be starting something new - many players agree, the best way to learn, and to have fun playing the bass, is getting out there with someone - anyone! - and play with other people in front of an audience... glad to see the Precision love, lol... while all the pickups on my main Precisions are stock, I am now considering 'hot rodding' my '87 Precision - it plays great and it's super light (great for those long gig nights for an old man like myself, lol) but the sound is a little lacking compared to my others, so I may get some pickups and other accessories for it, including the mirrored pickguard of course!

I've tried Eden a few times and while they sounded OK, I think they may be a little too pricey, plus I also heard about the "handle with care" caveat... for that price, it should either be tough or come in a shock-mount roadcase! lol. I've found out that the closest Ashdown dealer is in Columbus - hmmm...
Eric, if I ever decide to get rid of my SWR, you'll be the first one I call, lol... No probs with mine in the years I've had it.

Speaking of John Paul Jones, his 2nd CD "The Thunderthief" also has it's moments - Jamie, sounds like a JPJ burning session at the next practice! (I'm still in awe of the fact that I got to meet the man, drive him around in my car - too unreal! - and had him sign my Alembic bass - wild stuff!)

btw, writing this while also watching the David Gilmour special on VH1 Classic...

Bassically yours -
Eroc